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Skill Balancing & Adjusting


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#1 JoeTang

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 07:40 AM

Having had a very interesting discussion today with Lugin and Loose on Maple, I decided to bring it here as well.

As the title suggest, we discussed the current balance or there lack of for skills. With the introduction of Pirates, Knights of Cygnus, and in the future, Aran, many of the original job's skills being balanced come into question, though some have been in question for a long time.
For example, Crashes. Power/Armor/Magic Crash are some of the most useless skills in the game. Magic Crash in particular because it removes MDEF+, but Paladins don't use Magic. Of course, this could be residuals from the point where MA did something for White Knights in the planning process, shown by the +Magic Attack in charges, but it is seemingly useless now.

So, in this thread, let us discuss skills and how they could be improved and balanced compared to other jobs, or just in general.

I'll start us off:
Blast - PaladinClick here to read!

Currently max level 30: 550%
My suggestion: 150%x4 = 600%
Reasons:
What Paladins have now is a massive single target strike that does 550% damage, a number that's meant to help balance against a Hero's Brandish hitting 260%x2 = 520%. However, Hero's have the blessed advantage of being able to hit three monsters with their main attack, whereas if a Paladin wants to mob, they have to use Advanced Charge Blow, which is 350%. At the least, they can mob up to six as opposed to a Hero's three, but the damage disparity is still significant in comparison. A Paladin would have to mob 5 or 6 monsters with ACB to match the damage output of 3 mob Brandish.
My suggestion puts Blast at a slightly higher %damage than it currently is to help deal with this difference, as well as breaking it into smaller hits. Paladins suffer from this large % hit due to the damage cap. It's not an uncommon thing to see a Paladin hit 199999 with Blast, but Heroes don't suffer as theirs is broken into two hits, seeing a potential of 100k+ on each whereas the Paladin is restricted to 199999 on their max damage. Thus, by compounding the hits in Blast into four separate blows, you can avoid having the damage cap hinder this class. Comparatively, the Hero has a 1.9x modifier from Advanced Combo, and the Paladin has a 1.4x modifier from Holy Charge. With elemental advantage, it becomes 2.1, but you won't be seeing this come into play (very often if at all) against a boss; in fact, it hinders them in some cases. With the new revelation of Pink Been's Physical Resistance as well as Holy, a Paladin is thrown into doing 25% of their regular damage if they use Holy Charge, thus forcing them to use Lightning Charge, giving them 45% of what would be considered their normal damage. A Hero gets their full damage as they don't have to cancel Advanced Combo, and only receives a 50% penalty from the Physical Resistance. To add another point, they only gain a modifier advantage using Holy Charge; every other charge with elemental advantage is still lower than Advanced Combo's 1.9x
The downside to this change would be the lack of knock-back from a skill that does 150% per hit, though it is a fair trade off in my opinion due to ACB's interruptible stun.


[Close]


Advanced Combo Attack - HeroClick here to read!

You're probably thinking "Why does the hero need rebalancing?" Well, to be frank, every job has fatal flaws, some more noticeable than others. One of the Hero's is Advanced Combo. With the current scheme, Finishers become almost completely useless.
With 5 Orbs (Maxed ACA), a Finisher will do Skill% * 1.7 * 2.5
With 10 Orbs, a Finisher will do Skill%*1.9*2.5
Comparatively, 4 Orbs does Skill%*1.65*2.0
Orbs 1~5 add significant damage to Finishers comparatively to the previous orb count, but Advanced Combo's orbs do almost nothing, and the amount of time wasted in charging those extra orbs to use a Finisher provide almost no damage difference (its average DPS is actually lower) than if you were to just continually spam Brandish, which is still quite unrealistic because knockback will prevent you from continually charging orbs in the first place. Thus, Finishers have become squat and the levels and SP spent on maxing them in Third job become completely tossed away in Fourth job. My suggestion here is to raise the combo modifier for Advanced Combo Attack's 6~10 orbs to be 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.7, and 4.0 at 10 orbs
So, Panic at 10 Orbs will now do, instead of 1662.5%, 2660%, a step up from not being very useful to now being viable in bossing and training.

[Close]


Dragon Fury (Spear) - Dragon KnightClick here to read!

Single forced Stab, similar to a Buster, but in one hit forward. Hits six mobs. 250%. Equal distance, if not further, than the current version, but less emphasis on height as there's no swinging involved. The idea here is to have a significant reason and variance in Spears and Polearms. Spear Fury currently is less than desirable due to being a forced swing, which is in disadvantage to Spears compared to forced stab. A swing is 40% weaker than a stab for a Spear.
Mob up to 10. What can I say. Rush lets you push up to 15 monsters into a pile right? What part of it makes sense that you can only smack 6 of them? And what makes it fair that Archmages can nuke 15, and Aran can rush and demolish 12, not to mention starting from first job. Keep in mind I want to adjust every mob skill to reflect this.

[Close]


Dragon Fury (Polearm) - Dragon KnightClick here to read!

Mob up to 10. What can I say. Rush lets you push up to 15 monsters into a pile right? What part of it makes sense that you can only smack 6 of them? And what makes it fair that Archmages can nuke 15, and Aran can rush and demolish 12, not to mention starting from first job. Keep in mind I want to adjust every mob skill to reflect this.


[Close]


Crusher (Polearm) - Dragon KnightClick here to read!

Two swings, one down, second one up. Hits three mobs. 255% a hit. Forced swing. Hit box should be the same as current Crusher. Same reasons as above. The idea is to have a difference between Spears and Polearms. Not one move that's advantageous and the other for some reason a stupid idea and then requiring a switch to a second weapon to be at full potential. Polearm Crusher at the moment is just bleh. It forces three stabs. Stabs with Polearms make me sad. etc. Stabs are 40% weaker than swings for a Polearm.

[Close]


ArchmagesClick here to read!

Something along the lines of making all post-first job skills ~30% higher in Base Attack except Ultimates. With the current set up, we all know mages end up having shit damage outside of ultimates. Reworking the magic formula to make them stronger would need that ultimates be nerfed a bit in Base Attack. Other things to note, the mechanics of Big Bang are a bit messed up. It has a small hitbox and it's pretty poor in damage. It definitely needs a damage improvement, at least to the point where an uncharged Big Bang is stronger than Magic Claw dry.gif Chain Lightning itself needs some work. The damage reduction from increased mobs should be lower than what it currently is, despite what was already given. There's a significant damage difference on higher mob numbers compared to Ice Demon at this point still unless you have advantage which is rarely the case in 4th job, let alone with Lightning.

[Close]


Boomerang Step - ShadowerClick here to read!

One of the things I want to tackle is mob caps. I mean, I know there's a reason Boomerang Step has a mob cap of 4. It's stupid. No one's ever boohood that Shadowers mob too strongly. Band of Thieves is puny. You'd hardly be able to get the same monsters you're smacking with Boomerang Step, especially when they're the larger variety that don't like to stack on top of each other. I just feel that Boomerang Step needs to be increased to 6 mobs, especially considering that Aran can mob twelve, and the mob adjustments I want to talk about.

[Close]

Coma - CrusaderClick here to read!

Mob up to 10.

[Close]


Charged Blow - White KnightClick here to read!

Mob up to 10

[Close]


Advanced Charge Blow - PaladinClick here to read!

Mob up to 12

[Close]


Slash Bast - WarriorClick here to read!

Mob up to 8

[Close]


Band of Thieves - Chief BanditClick here to read!

Remove the activation range completely, and have it always activate when used. I think it's just stupid you need something in front of you to be able to call your buddies to lay the smackdown. Also, maybe increase the mobbing cap on this to 8 too, as well as the range. It currently is the smallest (usable) AoE, only beaten in this area by Ninja Storm I think and Ambush or something equally useless. One significant thing that needs improvement here is Venom activation. Band of Thieves can't inflict Venom. Night Lords on the other hand don't have this issue, as all their skills except like Ninja Storm can activate it; i.e. they can Avenger a mob of 6 and Venom them all, whereas a CB has to rely on their 4mob Boomerang Step or single target Assaulter/Savage Blow/Assassinate to do the job.

What Loose suggested was that Band of Thieves not waste hits; i.e. if there's one monster, BAM six hits. The only flaw would be a way to scale it to do proper damage to reflect that; i.e. you can't have BoT doing 240%x6 on a single target. You also can't have it doing something like 100% on six targets just to balance the Single Target aspect; so perhaps an inverse multiplier like Heal; more targets, more damage per hit; less targets, weaker attack.


[Close]


Boomerang Step - ShadowerClick here to read!

One of the things I want to tackle is mob caps. I mean, I know there's a reason Boomerang Step has a mob cap of 4. It's stupid. No one's ever boohood that Shadowers mob too strongly. Band of Thieves is puny. You'd hardly be able to get the same monsters you're smacking with Boomerang Step, especially when they're the larger variety that don't like to stack on top of each other. I just feel that Boomerang Step needs to be increased to 6 mobs, especially considering that Aran can mob twelve, and the mob adjustments I want to talk about.

[Close]


Pierce - MarksmenClick here to read!

Now, here's something I want to complain about. Pierce. What comes to mind when you see this? When you think of a Marksman charging their huge Tree of Life? STRONGEST MOBBING SKILL IN THE GAME? lolno. The strongest mobbing skill in the game is Battle Ship: Torpedo. Followed by Berserked Dragon Fury I believe. In terms of DPS% anyways, Dark Knights will have a higher base damage range anyways winning, and Corsairs are pretty even with Marksmen, yet they still have higher damage with Torpedo. Why is this? Why can Corsairs have greater Single Target Damage, Mob Target Damage, Mobility, Versatility, and Survivability than Marksmen? PIERCE 15 MOB LET'S SEE SOME 14000% ON THAT LAST MOB. I just think this would be really cool to see, not that many places if any have the viability to have 15 mobs pile up to be Pierced.

[Close]


Dragon Breath - Bowmaster & MarksmenClick here to read!

Mob Rate: 10
Gonna need a way to pile that 15 mob Pierce, plus all the other mob skills I want to be able to hit more things.

[Close]


Inferno - RangerClick here to read!

This skill sucks. At maxed level with SE, it does less damage than Arrow Bomb, a second job skill.Currently 282% vs 301.6% Arrow Bomb, but 352.5% with Advantage; however, there are so few Fire Weak trainable mobs, that Inferno ends up being skipped in most builds, since Bomb is superior in damage, can stun, and you've already maxed it.
Possible Solutions:
200% mob 8 or 10 (332% average//415% advantage)
60%x2 mob 8 or 10 (384% average//480% advantage)

[Close]


Blizzard - SniperClick here to read!

Not much to say here. Just mob 8 or 10. Maybe break it into two hits so it's like Inferno. I mean, all those ice shards falling down and only one hit? Only reason I only gave Inferno two hits was that any more and it becomes ridiculously overpowered to the point of Pierce = joke. Maybe increase the damage to reflect what Inferno got. ~160%?

[Close]


Arrow Rain/Eruption - Ranger/SniperClick here to read!

Max mob - 8 or 10
So it can compete with Arans rushing shit into piles of 12 past you. Possibly even break it down to multi-hit or higher power since Inferno was.
Such as 70%x2 or ~210%

[Close]


Arrow Bomb - HunterClick here to read!

Mob - 8 if Inferno/AR Mob 10 otherwise 6
Maybe reduce the damage a bit to like 120% because of this though, since Iron Arrow has a heavy damage reduction for passing through larger numbers of targets.

[Close]


Iron Arrow - CrossbowmanClick here to read!

Mob - 8 if Blizzard/AE Mob 10 otherwise 6
Just to be fair. Maybe reduce the damage reduction some more. With Arrow Bomb's Impact Damage removed, there's even less incentive to pick Crossbowmen despite the reduction being lowered still.

[Close]

Edited by JoeTang, 18 September 2009 - 07:07 AM.


#2 Theshinji

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 11:21 AM

The problem is not that Blast is weak, it is that Nexon has no idea how to balance things between the classes at all. Commonly, the 2% difference between Fire Blast (Advantage) and brandish is touted a LOT on some sites as the be all and end all of why a paladin is weak - But when you consider it, it really isn't the case. Brandish is pretty OP.

If you look at DKs, their Pole Arm Fury is a mere 2% behind ACB when comparing the two on 6 holy weak targets. (this is with beserk) (And yes, I know the rumours about how 'hard' it is to gather a mob of 6 in 4th job, but anyone who can navigate the Skele mini dungeon properly will NOT have a problem on the top or bottom platforms) Then they have crusher to deal with the three targets, which is pretty much equal to Brandish with beserk active.

The difference? As we all know, brandish activates about 20 times a minute more than Crusher or Fury. Same goes for ACB. As it should be, a DK can dominate a paladin on neutrals, but how does it make ANY sense that brandish's 988% damage on a single target, capable of being passed to three targets, is so fast, and so close in damage to what is supposed to be the strongest single target warrior attack in the game?

The answer is simple: Nexon cannot and will not do anything to appease any class outside the popular 5: Bishops, Night Lords, Archers, Heroes and Dark knights. I saw a theory Senyain drew up for a POTENTIAL pq where paladins would supposedly 'dominate' (though the boss was holy immune, for some odd reason about 'balancing' the PQ) and immediately, crusaders came in, and started posting ''hang on, that's not fair, why should paladins dominate this thing?''

This is the exact reason why nexon will not balance the classes. Why upset the 5 most popular classes, thereby risking your biggest source of cash and potentially damaging your cash flow? The problem paladins have is that there are no genuinely essential lightning or holy weak bosses, wether it be in parts like the arms of zakum, or single targets like the body. And nexon simply can't make a boss that is in this scenario. Even though people still wouldn't take paladins even if they were proven to dominate a boss and make it an utter joke, nexon simply will not risk upsetting those key classes. This is why Maple Story will NEVER be balanced.

Edited by Theshinji, 13 September 2009 - 11:22 AM.


#3 JoeTang

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 08:14 PM

Yes, I realise that it is not because Blast is weak, but that Brandish is overpowered. My suggestion is to improve Blast in a way that makes Paladins more desirable. No more damage cap holding you down, and some improved single target damage.
Both (or all) classes have issues that need to be worked out, but I decided to start out with Paladin's Blast.
One thing I forgot to add is the range. I think Blast's range should be a bit longer than it is, just because of the animation style. I mean, Brandish has a significant height advantage over it, Blast shouldn't just be a shorter version of their hitbox. Well, thank God there is a set hitbox now at least.

#4 SoullessFire

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 09:40 PM

Lol. If Nexon bothered to make MS balanced, they'd get more players for each different class.

wtb better m. att formula. nao.

Edited by SoullessFire, 13 September 2009 - 09:40 PM.


#5 JoeTang

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 06:29 AM

I'll probably be going through all the jobs and most of their skills that I see problems with. I would like everyone else to add their input as to what you feel should be changed as well. The idea of this thread is to discuss the current issues with balances or mechanics in skills, such as the following:

Next up:
Advanced Combo Attack - Hero
You're probably thinking "Why does the hero need rebalancing?" Well, to be frank, every job has fatal flaws, some more noticeable than others. One of the Hero's is Advanced Combo. With the current scheme, Finishers become almost completely useless.
With 5 Orbs (Maxed ACA), a Finisher will do Skill% * 1.7 * 2.5
With 10 Orbs, a Finisher will do Skill%*1.9*2.5
Comparatively, 4 Orbs does Skill%*1.65*2.0
Orbs 1~5 add significant damage to Finishers comparatively to the previous orb count, but Advanced Combo's orbs do almost nothing, and the amount of time wasted in charging those extra orbs to use a Finisher provide almost no damage difference (its average DPS is higher by almost 40%) than if you were to just continually spam Brandish, which is quite unrealistic because knockback will prevent you from continually charging orbs. Thus, Finishers have become squat and the levels and SP spent on maxing them in Third job become completely tossed away in Fourth job. My suggestion here is to raise the combo modifier for Advanced Combo Attack's 6~10 orbs to be 2.6, 2.7, 2.8, 2.9, and 3.0 at 10 orbs
So, Panic at 10 Orbs will now do, instead of 1662.5%, 1995%, a step up from not being very useful to now being viable in bossing and training.

#6 Loose

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 06:37 AM

Here's what I want.

Implement the new stuff Pirates brought to MapleStory on other classes. Such as skill charging (Corkscrew Punch) to lower job skills (I know they exist in Big Bang and Pierce), Grenade throwing, static summons (Octopus), "Transformations" (Transformation, Battleship), power bar charging (Energy Charge), long delays (Corkscrew Punch, Backspin Blow, Double Uppercut), invincibility (Corkscrew Punch, Barrage), etc.

Imagine if they reworked a couple of skills to use those systems, it might do wonders for some classes. Buff up my Shadower's Assassinate's last hit and make it be invincible like Corkscrew, I do not enjoy jabbing me character at high damaging monsters, praying for high avoid or Shadow Shifter to come into play, just to see a bad ass skill.

Also how Pirates can max almost all of their 1st, 2nd and 3rd job skills, makes the game feel less linear, or maybe it's because I'm forced or enjoy using all the skills on my Buccaneer. Each skill is perfect for a situation and useful. The only ones I don't find useful at all is Dash and Shockwave, everything else on all jobs I need or use. On my Shadower I have Disorder, Steal, Endure could go either way, Shield Mastery and Ninja Ambush that I don't find useful at all.

On my Shadower, I get unmotivated when I see that Shadow Shifter, Taunt, Ninja Ambush and Smoke Shell all max at level 30. That's 10 levels past 130 to max each, no skill maxes at level 20. Buccaneer, Super Transformation and Speed Infusion (only need 11) are only to level 20, Corsair has Bullseye, Hypnotize and Wrath of Octopi. I'd be happy just to see Shadow Shifter and Smoke Shell go down to 20, that way, I'd max them faster, get the most benefit outta 'em faster and spend less money on skill books. Hell, make Shadow Shifter max at 10, adding 3% activation each level, we are Shadowers after all.

I'm not much for damage per second augmentation, I'm looking for a better gaming experience, more innovation in skills, instead of just pressing a button and see different numbers fly. Add more dynamic stuff like Assaulter, Assassinate, Energy Orb, Battleship, Grenade, etc.

#7 JoeTang

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:04 AM

I'm definitely with you on the innovation aspect, and that's why I feel a lot of the original four jobs need reworking on their base skills

Dragon Fury (Spear) - Dragon Knight
Single forced Stab, similar to a Buster, but in one hit forward. Hits six mobs. 250%. Equal distance, if not further, than the current version, but less emphasis on height as there's no swinging involved. The idea here is to have a significant reason and variance in Spears and Polearms. Spear Fury currently is less than desirable due to being a forced swing, which is in disadvantage to Spears compared to forced stab. A swing is 40% weaker than a stab for a Spear.

Crusher (Polearm) - Dragon Knight
Two swings, one down, second one up. Hits three mobs. 255% a hit. Forced swing. Hit box should be the same as current Crusher. Same reasons as above. The idea is to have a difference between Spears and Polearms. Not one move that's advantageous and the other for some reason a stupid idea and then requiring a switch to a second weapon to be at full potential. Polearm Crusher at the moment is just bleh. It forces three stabs. Stabs with Polearms make me sad. etc. Stabs are 40% weaker than swings for a Polearm.

I think it's just awful planning on their part that they decided to have two weapon branches but with the exact same skills. It makes no sense from a design stance at all. Just think about it. There's two weapon choices. One specialises in slashing. The other in thrusting. Now, WHY IN GOD'S NAME DO YOU HAVE A WEAPON-SPECIFIC SKILL THAT FORCES YOU TO BE WEAK? Augh. It just makes me rage, how poorly designed this was.

#8 Masamune

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 11:55 AM

IMO, you'd have to nerf Brandish if you want to rework AC. They're already considered the top melee class in DPM and tanking ability, barring SI and elemental advantages. Reworking AC so that the 6-10th orbs actually mean something would be overkill. Heroes are probably one of the last classes that need powerups in terms of balancing. In terms of improving aesthetics and play style? Maybe. Unless we're talking about axes versus swords; there's a real need to balance things out there.

#9 JoeTang

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Masamune @ Sep 14 2009, 06:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
IMO, you'd have to nerf Brandish if you want to rework AC. They're already considered the top melee class in DPM and tanking ability, barring SI and elemental advantages. Reworking AC so that the 6-10th orbs actually mean something would be overkill. Heroes are probably one of the last classes that need powerups in terms of balancing. In terms of improving aesthetics and play style? Maybe. Unless we're talking about axes versus swords; there's a real need to balance things out there.

The change that I'm suggesting is to improve finisher damage with the 6th to 10th orbs.
I made a fudge in the calculations though. Currently, if you try to use Finishers, there is no improvement in DPS/M, you lose damage over time. The damage lost from losing your orbs and having to recharge them does not make up for the damage you gain from Panic, especially if you hit the damage cap. 10 orbs would need to have ~3.9x orb modifier on the Finisher to even start improving the DPS for Finishers to be useful to any degree. I'll try to come back to this later.

Archmages - Something along the lines of making all post-first job skills ~30% higher in Base Attack except Ultimates. With the current set up, we all know mages end up having shit damage outside of ultimates. Reworking the magic formula to make them stronger would need that ultimates be nerfed a bit in Base Attack. Other things to note, the mechanics of Big Bang are a bit messed up. It has a small hitbox and it's pretty poor in damage. It definitely needs a damage improvement, at least to the point where an uncharged Big Bang is stronger than Magic Claw dry.gif Chain Lightning itself needs some work. The damage reduction from increased mobs should be lower than what it currently is, despite what was already given. There's a significant damage difference on higher mob numbers compared to Ice Demon at this point still unless you have advantage which is rarely the case in 4th job, let alone with Lightning.

#10 Masamune

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 05:27 PM

Oh yeah, I know you're suggesting that it should be improved and the whole calculations with using finishers losing DPS/M but that's why I said that they should be later on, because there are other classes which need the attention later much earlier than Heroes would.

#11 JoeTang

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:33 AM

Boomerang Step - Shadower
One of the things I want to tackle is mob caps. I mean, I know there's a reason Boomerang Step has a mob cap of 4. It's stupid. No one's ever boohood that Shadowers mob too strongly. Band of Thieves is puny. You'd hardly be able to get the same monsters you're smacking with Boomerang Step, especially when they're the larger variety that don't like to stack on top of each other. I just feel that Boomerang Step needs to be increased to 6 mobs, especially considering that Aran can mob twelve, and the mob adjustments I want to talk about.

Refer back to the first post, I updated some thing I want to say about Fury.


No one else wants to add some input as to how specific skills should be improved?

Edited by JoeTang, 15 September 2009 - 04:37 AM.


#12 Loose

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:58 AM

Less reduction on Energy Orb's bounce damage or larger hit box, that's all I want on my Buccaneer. The current Energy Orb range is pathetic.

On Mages, after reworking the Magic Attack formula, how about making Ultimates really ultimates, make them charge a bar like in Mu Lung Dojo or Energy Charge, but way less hits to charge it.

Now, I don't know much about 'em, but isn't it kind of stupid to have a summon be the opposite element as you? Shouldn't they be switched around? Or at least make them the same as their complementary element (Poison/Lightning)?

#13 JoeTang

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:34 AM

QUOTE (Loose @ Sep 14 2009, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Less reduction on Energy Orb's bounce damage or larger hit box, that's all I want on my Buccaneer. The current Energy Orb range is pathetic.

On Mages, after reworking the Magic Attack formula, how about making Ultimates really ultimates, make them charge a bar like in Mu Lung Dojo or Energy Charge, but way less hits to charge it.

Now, I don't know much about 'em, but isn't it kind of stupid to have a summon be the opposite element as you? Shouldn't they be switched around? Or at least make them the same as their complementary element (Poison/Lightning)?

The current idea for Arch Mages summons (which I think is stupid to be honest) is that they have their opposite element, and they have their element's "Demon".
F/P Has El Quines, the Ice Summon, and Fire Demon. Use Fire Demon, and what happens is it debuffs the monster as well as damaging them. With this debuff active, the monster is now NEUTRAL to every element, and Weak to Ice. Pretty stupid. At least I'm fairly sure it makes monsters Neutral to other elements. Which really makes some training options weaker, though it opens others up to some degree.

Even giving Ultimates the charging bar like Big Bang would be an improvement of sorts. Now people can't just stand there and press a button, they have to hold it down.

Pierce - Marksmen
Now, here's something I want to complain about. Pierce. What comes to mind when you see this? When you think of a Marksman charging their huge Tree of Life? STRONGEST MOBBING SKILL IN THE GAME? lolno. The strongest mobbing skill in the game is Battle Ship: Torpedo. Followed by Berserked Dragon Fury I believe. In terms of DPS% anyways, Dark Knights will have a higher base damage range anyways winning, and Corsairs are pretty even with Marksmen, yet they still have higher damage with Torpedo. Why is this? Why can Corsairs have greater Single Target Damage, Mob Target Damage, Mobility, Versatility, and Survivability than Marksmen? PIERCE MOTHER FUCKING 15 MOB LET'S SEE SOME 14000% ON THAT LAST MOB. I just think this would be really cool to see, not that many places if any have the viability to have 15 mobs pile up to be Pierced.

Edited by JoeTang, 15 September 2009 - 05:36 AM.


#14 Theshinji

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 01:54 PM

It's not really anything to do with skills, but i'll just throw in my 2 cents.

Elementally weak bosses

There seriously needs to be one or two fire, lightning or holy weak bosses that are actually major events. Pianus/anego, Crow, and Manon are currently the only elementally weak bosses that get any attention. Paladins and mages are nearly useless in a full attack party at HT, and only lightning mages get any slight break at PB either.

It's wishful thinking though. Undoubtedly any such boss would get cries of being unfair to everyone else >_>

Edited by Theshinji, 16 September 2009 - 07:22 AM.


#15 Loose

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:40 AM

That's true.

Instead of making being elemental an advantage, they punish those with elements. They make 'em elementally challenged. That's a big problem for White Knights, Paladins and Magicians.

#16 JoeTang

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 07:14 AM

A boss or mob with Physical Resistance but elemental weaknesses would help. So far, PB is the only thing that has Physical Resistance, but hopefully they'll implement more in the future.

Tackle some of the bowmen things while I'm here, there's not much detail I want to get into; it's mainly just mob count balancing when compared to Arans.
Dragon Breath - Bowmaster & Marksmen
Mob Rate: 10
Gonna need a way to pile that 15 mob Pierce, plus all the other mob skills I want to be able to hit more things.

Inferno - Ranger
This skill sucks. At maxed level with SE, it does less damage than Arrow Bomb, a second job skill.Currently 282% vs 301.6% Arrow Bomb, but 352.5% with Advantage; however, there are so few Fire Weak trainable mobs, that Inferno ends up being skipped in most builds, since Bomb is superior in damage, can stun, and you've already maxed it.
Possible Solutions:
200% mob 8 or 10 (332% average//415% advantage)
60%x2 mob 8 or 10 (384% average//480% advantage)

Blizzard - Sniper
Not much to say here. Just mob 8 or 10. Maybe break it into two hits so it's like Inferno. I mean, all those ice shards falling down and only one hit? Only reason I only gave Inferno two hits was that any more and it becomes ridiculously overpowered to the point of Pierce = joke. Maybe increase the damage to reflect what Inferno got. ~160%?

Arrow Rain/Eruption - Ranger/Sniper
Max mob - 8 or 10
So it can compete with Arans rushing shit into piles of 12 past you. Possibly even break it down to multi-hit or higher power since Inferno was.
Such as 70%x2 or ~210%

Arrow Bomb - Hunter
Mob - 8 if Inferno/AR Mob 10 otherwise 6
Maybe reduce the damage a bit to like 120% because of this though, since Iron Arrow has a heavy damage reduction for passing through larger numbers of targets.

Iron Arrow - Crossbowman
Mob - 8 if Blizzard/AE Mob 10 otherwise 6
Just to be fair. Maybe reduce the damage reduction some more. With Arrow Bomb's Impact Damage removed, there's even less incentive to pick Crossbowmen despite the reduction being lowered still.


#17 Lugin

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 01:32 PM

If Physical resist were properly implemented, then that would work.
Unfortunately, as it is, Paladins get hit with its reduction well.
So on an elementally weak, physically resisting boss, they'd do 75% of base charge and skill multiplier.

And if somehow forced into using a resisted element on physical resist... 25% of base charge and skill.
Not that that would happen voluntarily, but still.

Information from this thread at Southperry.

Edited by Lugin, 16 September 2009 - 01:33 PM.


#18 Theshinji

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:11 PM

For once i've gotta agree with Stereo. This PB thing is just a joke. Again, the so called 'strongest' single target attack a warrior is capable of loses out. I'm seriously glad i'm not one of those tards that HP washes to 30k just on the hope a boss will be good for my class. sleep.gif

#19 JoeTang

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Lugin @ Sep 16 2009, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Physical resist were properly implemented, then that would work.
Unfortunately, as it is, Paladins get hit with its reduction well.
So on an elementally weak, physically resisting boss, they'd do 75% of base charge and skill multiplier.

And if somehow forced into using a resisted element on physical resist... 25% of base charge and skill.
Not that that would happen voluntarily, but still.

Information from this thread at Southperry.

My bad, I was thinking in round-about addition and for some reason decided they would be doing 100% damage.

Band of Thieves - Chief Bandit
Remove the activation range completely, and have it always activate when used. I think it's just stupid you need something in front of you to be able to call your buddies to lay the smackdown. Also, maybe increase the mobbing cap on this to 8 too, as well as the range. It currently is the smallest (usable) AoE, only beaten in this area by Ninja Storm I think and Ambush or something equally useless. One significant thing that needs improvement here is Venom activation. Band of Thieves can't inflict Venom. Night Lords on the other hand don't have this issue, as all their skills except like Ninja Storm can activate it; i.e. they can Avenger a mob of 6 and Venom them all, whereas a CB has to rely on their 4mob Boomerang Step or single target Assaulter/Savage Blow/Assassinate to do the job.

#20 Loose

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 03:14 PM

For Band of Thieves what I would like is to always use the 6 hits. If there is one monster, all 6 hits go towards it; if there are three monsters, then 2 hits on each, etc. If it increases to 8 hits, then maybe lower the damage to 200%. Also, the Venom thing, it's a huge deal, I feel my one point in it is a total waste.

What I would've liked for Shadowers is to have a passive skill that increases Mastery, avoid and all skills' damage by a certain percentage.




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