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Skill Balancing & Adjusting


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#21 Theshinji

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 04:20 PM

For the combo thing, perhaps you could nerf Brandish's speed down to near a crusher type of speed, and then give some big reward for using 10 orb Coma, like a 150/200% damage boost or whatever?

I'm pulling out a random number there, but it's more to illustrate the point. Like, rather than spamming brandish at a ridiculous speed and just decimating small mobs, a hero has to stop and think, and mob properly, using coma to achieve it's full potential.

#22 JoeTang

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 05:36 PM

QUOTE (Loose @ Sep 17 2009, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What I would've liked for Shadowers is to have a passive skill that increases Mastery, avoid and all skills' damage by a certain percentage.

Yeah, that's one of the options I was considering, replacing Ambush with some skill that would increase the base damage on all skills or something so as to augment the usefulness of Savage Blow, your main skill despite being a second job one =/ I think your Band of Thieves idea is wonderful. It makes sense, and is awesome. Would definitely love to see that and watch everyone complain as Shadowers decimate the battle field.

Shadow Mastery - Shadower
Something on the fly. 30 Skill points. At varying levels, it will give bonuses to certain skills. It gives +Mastery as well for a total of 15% at max; +2 hits to Savage Blow at max; +2 mobs to Band of Thieves; +something to Assaulter; something like that.

QUOTE (Theshinji @ Sep 17 2009, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For the combo thing, perhaps you could nerf Brandish's speed down to near a crusher type of speed, and then give some big reward for using 10 orb Coma, like a 150/200% damage boost or whatever?

I'm pulling out a random number there, but it's more to illustrate the point. Like, rather than spamming brandish at a ridiculous speed and just decimating small mobs, a hero has to stop and think, and mob properly, using coma to achieve it's full potential.

The bonus should be applied to Advanced Combo so it doesn't affect the third job aspect of the skill, which works fine more or less as it is. Slowing down Brandish isn't that great of an idea in my opinion. Actually, I'd prefer to speed up Blast if that were the case. The damage increase so far for the change in Advanced Combo I suggested is 11%dps with Panic, i.e. in one minute they do 660% more damage than they currently do while spamming Brandish solely.

Coma in this case only improves if theres 5 or more monsters. Which is another thing I want to include

Coma - Crusader
Mob up to 10.

Charged Blow - White Knight
Mob up to 10

Advanced Charge Blow - Paladin
Mob up to 12

Slash Bast - Warrior
Mob up to 8

The options now become to either stop and collect mobs to Coma, or Brandish past everything like they do now. Having five or more monsters available to be Coma'd is situational in many maps. Sometimes, you have to stop to wait for the spawn. Others, you have to live with carrying a full combo for a while. Something like Panic probably won't be used often while training. It only hits one monster, and would likely overkill it. Coma can get past this by delivering a blow to several monsters at once, but you will become weakened afterwards, so it can suck pretty bad if you use it wrong.

Edited by JoeTang, 17 September 2009 - 08:30 PM.


#23 Theshinji

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:26 PM

It really is deceptively easy to mob up a group that you actually can't control with ACB anymore at the Restoring Memory. The way navigating the map would work is (this is simplified, and being used as an example)

- < plat 1 (large spawn area)

- < Plat 2 (split into two sections, one slightly lower)

- < Plat 3 (similar to 2, with less spawn)

- < Plat 4 (largest spawn area)

In the case of navigating this map they'd brandish plat 2 and 3 because there usually isn't enough monsters to reach full efficiency with Coma. However they can charge 10 orbs on the way up or down, and gather the spawn with a few rushes before using the finisher. It's not really THAT much strategy, but it gets them thinking, and allows them to learn map mechanics that bit better.

Currently the biggest complaint I see is that heroes have no strategy, they just spam brandish. IMO this would go quite a way towards changing things. And obviously i'm not just thinking for them either. It also makes Drks and Paladins slightly better in comparison.

#24 SoullessFire

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:50 PM

I would make a better availability to the Elemental Wands..

#25 JoeTang

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:20 PM

Genesis - Bishop
A ) MP -4500

B ) Basic Attack: 600

Nononononono. Either raise both the damage and the MP cost, or lower both. Don't do one and not the other.
"Hey, guys. Since Archmages use 3500MPx2, but do 570xAmp Basic Attack, let's make Bishops use half the MP, and do even more damage than Archmages would without Amp!"
"That's a great idea! Let's make if faster than them too since they get booster!"

Although some would say it's balanced now because of Elemental Wands, as Kevin has stated, they can be impossible to obtain for some people.

Edited by JoeTang, 24 September 2009 - 08:22 PM.


#26 Senyain

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:08 PM

QUOTE (Theshinji @ Sep 13 2009, 06:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The answer is simple: Nexon cannot and will not do anything to appease any class outside the popular 5: Bishops, Night Lords, Archers, Heroes and Dark knights. I saw a theory Senyain drew up for a POTENTIAL pq where paladins would supposedly 'dominate' (though the boss was holy immune, for some odd reason about 'balancing' the PQ) and immediately, crusaders came in, and started posting ''hang on, that's not fair, why should paladins dominate this thing?''


I'm glad to see someone still remembers my PQ suggestions, although I should really clarify that the boss was *not* holy immune. Goliath took half damage from holy attacks, but also took 1 damage from virtually everything else except Panic. I specifically worked out the mechanics before deciding that half-damage from holy was appropriate, since otherwise Paladins would hit more than twice as much DPS as Heroes in that battle, instead of just slightly more.

As for the rest of this thread, personally I think almost the whole thing is completely asinine, as it assumes the OP's preferred roles for classes are the "most important" ones and that every job is meant to focus on one-vs.-three DPS. If you can't be happy with the fact that Mage attacks do stuff like freeze or poison an entire map, or that ACB's total max damage potential on any mob above 3 is already nearly 1 1/2 times stronger than Brandish AND can stun AND attacks about 5% faster, you frankly don't know how to impartially analyze skills or for that matter even know the basic definition of RPG. I should also mention for the record that the OP is wrong - it does NOT take 5-6 targets in the mob before ACB would outdamage Brandish. On a mob of 4, ACB would deal a constant 2940%. Brandish would deal only 1976% if you were analyzing things properly - Brandish's 3-target damage per attack of 2964% (which is still lower DPS-wise given that ACB is about 5% faster than Brandish) would only apply as long as there were actually 3 targets. As soon as those 3 die there's only 1 left and it has to average together its 3-target and its 988% 1-target figures to really get an idea of how it's doing against a mob of 4. So yes, 4-target ACB does outdamage 4-target Brandish.

Also I love how you don't address the most popular classes' rather laughable weaknesses, especially the Night Lord's. Did you even happen to notice that unless they have a partied Bowmaster or Marksman (which there simply aren't enough of for every NL to have one partied at all times) who happens to never die or lag under any conditions that Night Lords are the second-lowest physically attacking 4th job DPS-wise (after Shadowers)? Did you happen to notice TT + SP - supposedly designed for high one-on-one DPS - is only 900% when soloing (or if their partied archer dies or lags) and that Night Lords have pitiful base damage to which that 900% is applied? They're even behind Dark Knights one-on-one which attack about about 60% of their speed. What's more, the difference is tremendous (at level 160 an average NL barely averages 50k DPS unappled while an average Hero hovers around 70k), and they don't even have a method of attacking mobs feasibly in 2nd or 4th job. I would call excessive dependency on another class and the inability to attack even two targets at a time major weaknesses. Granted, they were initially designed for mobility, but they gain nothing to that effect in 4th either. I would say the best way to narrow this gap would be to 1. change Sharp Eyes so the +140% bonus only applies on the 15% of criticals and 2. increase Triple Throw's base damage to 200% per star. This would increase TT + SP when soloing to 1125% - still not nearly enough to compensate for the fact that a NL averages about 65-75% of any warrior job's base damage range, but closer and more reasonable than 900%. Meanwhile their SE bonus would result in an average TT + SP of about 1287% - which would appease those (who do not happen to include me) that believe 1377% is too strong a figure to assign to one of the weakest base damages in the game.

Edited by Senyain, 05 November 2009 - 12:40 AM.


#27 JoeTang

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 05:12 AM

QUOTE (Senyain @ Nov 4 2009, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I should also mention for the record that the OP is wrong - it does NOT take 5-6 targets in the mob before ACB would outdamage Brandish. On a mob of 4, ACB would deal a constant 2940%. Brandish would deal only 1976% if you were analyzing things properly - Brandish's 3-target damage per attack of 2964% (which is still lower DPS-wise given that ACB is about 5% faster than Brandish) would only apply as long as there were actually 3 targets. As soon as those 3 die there's only 1 left and it has to average together its 3-target and its 988% 1-target figures to really get an idea of how it's doing against a mob of 4. So yes, 4-target ACB does outdamage 4-target Brandish.

I obviously did something horribly wrong here, thanks for pointing that out.

QUOTE (Senyain @ Nov 4 2009, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also I love how you don't address the most popular classes' rather laughable weaknesses, especially the Night Lord's. Did you even happen to notice that unless they have a partied Bowmaster or Marksman (which there simply aren't enough of for every NL to have one partied at all times) who happens to never die or lag under any conditions that Night Lords are the second-lowest physically attacking 4th job DPS-wise (after Shadowers)? Did you happen to notice TT + SP - supposedly designed for high one-on-one DPS - is only 900% when soloing (or if their partied archer dies or lags) and that Night Lords have pitiful base damage to which that 900% is applied? They're even behind Dark Knights one-on-one which attack about about 60% of their speed. What's more, the difference is tremendous (at level 160 an average NL barely averages 50k DPS unappled while an average Hero hovers around 70k), and they don't even have a method of attacking mobs feasibly in 2nd or 4th job. I would call excessive dependency on another class and the inability to attack even two targets at a time major weaknesses. Granted, they were initially designed for mobility, but they gain nothing to that effect in 4th either. I would say the best way to narrow this gap would be to 1. change Sharp Eyes so the +140% bonus only applies on the 15% of criticals and 2. increase Triple Throw's base damage to 200% per star. This would increase TT + SP when soloing to 1125% - still not nearly enough to compensate for the fact that a NL averages about 65-75% of any warrior job's base damage range, but closer and more reasonable than 900%. Meanwhile their SE bonus would result in an average TT + SP of about 1287% - which would appease those (who do not happen to include me) that believe 1377% is too strong a figure to assign to one of the weakest base damages in the game.


I apparently forgot about this thread before I got towards Night Lords in general, but I probably would not have considered their single target factor all that much. Thanks for your input. I personally think that damage nerfing is a path that makes too many people discontent, though 90%/s is not a big deal at all when they hit that significant of a range in the first place. I would like to think some of their low solo DPS is balanced by Venom's effect, but I also don't believe it's reliable enough since it is damage over time as opposed to damage per hit, which is a big difference. One of the factors to consider though is that Night Lords do get a larger bonus from Weapon Attack bonuses than other jobs due to their significantly lower base Weapon Attack.

Night Lords have retardedly high damage with Sharp Eyes compared to without though.
I recall pre-fourth job, everyone was arguing as to whether or not it would end up to be 40% +100% damage, 15% +40% damage, 6% +140%, or 55% +140% with an Archer's Sharp Eyes, and then we learned Sharp Eyes adds +140% despite its description of +40% and it stacks upon the 40% base chance from Critical Shot and 50% base chance from Critical Throw. It is definitely something that seems out of place, but Nexon seemingly doesn't care, especially with their implementation of Vampire on Night Walkers (though you shouldn't really be seeing that many with Sharp Eyes in the first place), and successively, their design of the Aran job.

You may or may not know, Aran have a skill called Critical Combo. It's learned in Third Job, and gives their attacks Critical Chances.
From Fiel's Skill Table:
10% chance to do Critical Damage
Level 20 |+10% Probability |+10% Critical Damage |Stacks 6 Times
The skill's mechanics work as such:
Once you place one point into it, I believe you inherently have a 10% chance to do Criticals which add +100% damage; at the least, when the skill is maxed you have such without needing to build or stack anything.
Afterwards, while building your Combo up, you have the probability to "Stack" your Combo Critical, up to six times. Thus, very easily, the Aran will build up their Combo and reach 70% chance to Critical +160% damage. Factor in Sharp Eyes and each Critical will be 85% Chance +300% damage.
Combine that with their fast attack rate and double-hitting skills and there's your new Night Lord.

What my current fear is is that Adventurers won't have what it takes to compete well against Aran, whether it be DPS, leveling, efficiency, bossing, etc. Aran are advertise as a difficult class to master, shown with a higher difficulty rating compared to Adventurers and Cygnus, but the reality is that it's all Ctrl > Ctrl > Ctrl> ... [Combo is some desired number] > Down, Right, Ctrl > Ctrl > Ctrl, etc.
The original Adventurers were all designed to mob at most six monsters, for whatever reason. Aran naturally take it up to 12, though it says they supposedly suffer some damage penalty, I have yet to see it's of any real significance. Hopefully it is, but I don't see it doing much of anything since being able to hit 12 monsters at once (and getting +12 combo each time) is a big deal.


The purpose of the thread was for everyone to add their input as to what they wanted to see change for jobs, or at the least what the saw was currently off, but apparently that was overshadowed by the huge mass of spoilers beneath it. I am disappointed this forum does not support multi-spoilering still.

Also, I'm amazed someone randomly managed to find this thread.

Edited by JoeTang, 06 November 2009 - 05:12 AM.


#28 Senyain

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (JoeTang @ Nov 6 2009, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, I'm amazed someone randomly managed to find this thread.


Actually I was searching Google for "Senyain" to see which sites adopted my old (some outdated) guides and stuff, and this came up as a result. Mostly I replied to address how Brian mentioned my PQ idea, which I personally had thought was unremembered by anybody at all. The rest was just sort of my take on the "better vs. worse" jobs thing. It's probably IMO the single biggest misconception among the MS community, which as a whole seems to have no idea why they're called "role-playing games" and not "gaining levels games" or "training games" or "killing bosses faster games."




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